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Clief Notes

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11 contributions to Clief Notes
Is anyone commercializing ICM as a Product or SaaS?
I am running an ICM knowledge base for my engineering company using GitHub, VS Code, and Claude Code. The efficiency gains in our workflows have been massive, and I see a clear opportunity to offer this to other regional companies as a new business unit. ​However, this dev-centric stack creates too much friction to be presented directly as a product to non-technical clients. ​The model I envision starts with heavy consulting to align the client's processes and culture. Once maturity is reached, it transitions into a managed service: issue tracking, periodic context pruning, and ad-hoc consulting for new agentic features. ​Has anyone here successfully commercialized this philosophy? I am particularly interested in how you package the delivery and abstract the technical friction (like the IDE and repo management) for the end user. Are there platforms already solving this?
0 likes • 1d
@Joshua Baker What you're describing — scheduling, project docs, financials in one vertical SaaS — is essentially an ERP for that niche. My take: those systems are mature and you won't beat them at being the system of record. The opening for ICM is to sit on top as an agentic layer. The SaaS holds the structured data. What it can't hold is the thing you pointed at yourself: the 20 years of experience that make the business actually work. That lives in people's heads, and no generic SaaS has a field for it. ICM is where that becomes an artifact — and once it's an artifact, an agent can act on it. So the folders don't replace the SaaS, they read from and write to it through its API (MCP where available). ERP stays the system of record; the folder tree becomes the system of context. That's what I'm doing with Odoo.
1 like • 1d
Following up on my own thread. Two weeks of research later, my answer to my own title changed. Short version, and I'd like to be told where I'm wrong. It's not a SaaS. The closest precedent I found is Forestry.io (2016–2023): a product that hid the dev stack from non-technical users. The product worked. The business died. What killed it was the economics of a low-priced seat sold to people who needed a lot of hand-holding. That's a warning about the business model, not about the technology. So here's what I now think the product actually is: consulting, with software that carries the retainer. The split I'm working with — which is the same line @Jordan Shaw and @Ramon Tilanus have been drawing: - Identical for every client: the ICM layer tree as a template, the app that hides the dev stack, the maintenance agent. - Always consulting: mapping their real processes into those layers. That never becomes a product, and I've stopped trying to make it one. The container is the product. The filling is the engagement. What scales badly isn't the software — it's the operation. N clients × updates, token spend, template versions, support. I kept treating that as a cost to minimize. It's the opposite: that IS the recurring revenue. Budget it as a service and price it, don't hide it. The best sales line came out of the architecture rather than the pitch: the knowledge base stays plain markdown in a standard repo. If my app dies or the client fires me, they keep everything and can open it in any editor. "You're not locked into the consultant" kills an objection I was hitting every time. What I'm not doing: building it. Pilot first — the pilot tells me what the app needs. Building before that is guessing. The honest gap: nobody has proven the economics of operating this for a 20-person company. Not Forestry, and not anyone selling ICM today. Research doesn't answer that one. So, for those further along: does that container/filling split hold up? Or does
Rule of thumb on how many words?
Hi everyone. Is there any rule of thumb on how many words in every layer of an ICM workflow? Im trying to narrow it down in a large repo with many canonical things that apply for every workflow and I have 1263 words in layer 0 and a context routing of 871 words.
1 like • 29d
@Bryce McKinley Thank you so much! I was just wondering if there is a way to adding comments that get ignored by LLMs. But as far as I know, they take everything as context no matter what
0 likes • 28d
@Johnny L ​Yes. It was Claude itself that bloated everything. So I have to read the whole thing myself and start removing things that belong to other stages. And then I explained asked him to reorder the information in its proper placer.
Running ICM as a company's shared know-how — where the context tree is also the ISO-audited procedure manual
Most ICM setups I see here are single-operator: one person, one agent, one context tree that's basically externalized working memory. We're running it differently — as the shared know-how of a small engineering firm (~15 people: industrial automation, control-panel building, light EPC). That one shift, from personal to organizational, changes the whole problem. In a company, the context isn't just my memory — it's the procedures everyone has to follow, and procedures have to be governed, auditable, and improvable by people who will never open a terminal. Here's the core of what we've landed on. One markdown source, three readers. The ICM KB — plain markdown in GitHub — is at the same time: - the agent's operating context (what it reads to act: load costs into the ERP, build quotes, enforce the process); - the company's procedure manual, rendered into a navigable wiki — search, cross-links, the graph of how procedures interconnect — which is what employees actually read; - the ISO 9001 controlled-document system, because Git already is change control: versioned, attributed, diffed, immutable — stronger than the Word-on-a-shared-drive most small firms limp along with. No parallel copies, so nothing drifts. Git is the evidence vault; the wiki is the auditor's reading room. (Worth stating for this crowd: ISO 9001 mandates control — identification, approval, versioning, availability of the current version — it mandates no specific format. A git-backed static site clears that bar cleanly.) The agent is the abstraction layer — this is what makes it survive in a company of non-technical people. Nobody learns markdown, Git, or pull requests. They talk. The agent enforces the current procedure while they work; and when someone says "step 3 is wrong, we do Z now," it turns that into a proposed change to the controlled document. The quality lead gets a plain-language summary and approves or rejects. Proposing is frictionless and open to everyone; approving is a controlled human gate. The Git/PR machinery stays invisible underneath.
1 like • 29d
@Bryce McKinley I belive I did. Why do you bring it here? Didn´t really rang a bell about this issue.
5 likes • 29d
Update — it's live, and since a few of you asked how it actually works under the hood, here's the concrete stack. Thanks again @Aaron Klein , @Mira Bradshaw and @Pedro Costa It's a multi-repo Git workspace — one repo per domain (governance/quality, engineering, automation, commercial…), each with a single owner. Procedures are plain markdown; the ISO metadata a QMS needs — owner, approval sign-off, current-version — lives in the file's front-matter, and Git itself is the version history (no changelog footers, no "revised on…" — history is the commit log). The employee-facing wiki is a MkDocs static site built from those same files — search, navigation, cross-links, published read-only. Same source, three readers, zero copies. And nobody touches Git. The agent commits for them. If someone doesn't have write access to a repo, a pre-commit hook catches the push and turns it into a proposal to that repo's owner instead — so proposing is open to everyone, approving stays a human gate, and there's exactly one author keeping the whole thing coherent. Still chewing on the clean end state: single-source, where the agent's terse view is rendered from the prose instead of written alongside it. If you've bound a machine-facing and human-facing version of the same procedure without keeping two copies, I'd love to hear how.
ICM and Binary Files
To optimize version control, we avoid tracking binary files like Docx or Excel. Instead, the repository stores a Python generator script and Markdown files containing the specific parameters for each document. The script compiles the Markdown into the final binary artifact, ensuring minimal repository size and semantic diffs. We apply this pattern to engineering quotation spreadsheets. The LLM creates a MD file after analysing the specific sale. The Python script generates an Excel file from the MD parameters. However, users must modify the generated Excel directly to adjust the Bill of Materials (e.g., adding rows or changing products) for real-time sensitivity analysis. This human intervention alters the sheet structure, breaking the unidirectional flow and causing standard deterministic reverse-parsing to fail. The proposed mechanism to handle this is: 1. The user edits the Bill of Materials directly within the generated Excel artifact. 2. A deterministic Python script attempts to parse this modified sheet to update the original Markdown parameters. 3. If structural modifications cause the deterministic script to fail, an LLM agent is triggered as a fallback to probabilistically parse the unstructured sheet and reconstruct the Markdown data. I am looking for objective feedback on the architectural robustness of this pipeline, specifically regarding latency, reliability, and the viability of using an LLM as a fault-tolerant layer for reverse-parsing human-altered structured data.
ICM and session memory
Stack: Claude Code, Opus 4.8 at extra-high reasoning effort while building the workflows, so model tier is not the variable. Symptom: on the machine where I built it, the agent nails conventions and picks the right procedure unprompted. Same repo on another PC (or after splitting the monorepo into per-tier repos) and it gets visibly dumber. Same model, same files, same prompts. I ran several passes of flow debugging, routing tuning, and file cleanup, with no change. So I went hunting for what differs between machines but isn't in the repo. I found two things, both unversioned and both silent. First, the agent's per-project memory store, which is keyed by project path and lives outside git; on the dev box it had been quietly complementing the KB for weeks, and on a new path the bucket is empty, so a whole layer is gone with no error thrown. Second, local harness config (session hooks and settings) that primed routing at startup, which also doesn't travel. The part I almost missed: re-homing those facts into canonical docs is necessary but not sufficient. A rule already written in its canonical home still got skipped, because written is not the same as loaded at task time. Where I landed: performance = model x context actually loaded at runtime. Migration never touches the model, it fragments the loaded context. Fix direction: split durability (one canonical home per fact) from availability (always-on Layer 0 for cross-cutting rules, verb-routed pointers for the rest), then verify in a clean, memory-less session that the rule surfaces by its trigger rather than because I already knew it. Questions: 1. Is leaning on out-of-repo agent memory the classic first mistake, or am I misreading something structural in ICM? 2. Is there an ICM-native pattern for making a fact load-bearing (guaranteed in context at task time) vs just present in the tree? 3. Any heuristic for the always-on vs routed split before Layer 0 bloats? 4. Other unversioned dependencies that silently don't travel, beyond memory and local hooks?
0 likes • Jun 30
@Aaron Klein Thanks for the insights. ​I have several workflows that function correctly in production, but I want to refine and thoroughly test them in an automated way. ​Given the pressure of managing daily company operations during the week and the priority of keeping weekends for rest and family, I must maximize efficiency. My goal is to let Claude Code (Opus 4.8 under extra-high reasoning effort) run unattended during overnight sessions. ​What prompt structure or input contract pattern do you recommend to force the agent to hit pre-defined paths exclusively and execute the flow without prior exploration? ​Any heuristic or initialization pattern to lock down this level of determinism would be highly appreciated. ​I understand I should have taken a more methodical and structured approach from the beginning, but this is my first time developing with ICM and the system is already delivering real value to the company. Starting over from scratch is not a viable option. ​Is a macro approach like this viable to scale across the whole repository, or am I stuck having to review more than 20 workflows one by one? If a manual, case-by-case audit is the only way, I simply won't have the time to get through them all. Lastly, I suspect the required optimization might be quite narrow, and perhaps I am over-worrying. Is there a concrete way to evaluate performance here, such as measuring total token consumption across a stable workflow run to establish a baseline?
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Martin Brion
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@martin-brion-9809
Electronic Eng & Ingenia Managing Partner. Implementing an AI workflow to transform our firm and later drive Industry 4.0 value for clients.

Active 2h ago
Joined May 31, 2026
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