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Owned by John

HVAC Owners Roundtable

1 member • $49/month

HVAC business owners only. Pricing, hiring, P&Ls, exits — from a 35-year operator. No techs, no vendors, no tire-kickers.

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161.9k members • Free

9 contributions to HVAC Owners Roundtable
Why I never paid commission — 24 years, zero spiffs
This is the one that gets me argued with the most, so let’s have it out in here where people actually run numbers. I never paid a dime of commission. Above-market hourly plus quarterly bonuses tied to the whole shop’s performance. 24 years, that’s it. The reasoning: The second a tech’s pay depends on what he sells on that call, you’ve handed a customer’s checkbook to a guy alone in their basement with nobody watching. That’s not motivation. That’s a conflict of interest you built yourself. It works for about eighteen months. Ticket average climbs, everybody’s happy. Then callbacks. Then reviews. Then the customer who tells her sister you condemned a heat exchanger another shop said was fine — and now two neighborhoods won’t call you. You can’t out-market that. The part nobody says out loud: commission makes techs stop learning. Diagnosis is slow money, replacement is fast money. Five years of that and you’ve got a $180K salesman who can’t find a bad capacitor. Pay them enough that they don’t need to sell to feed their kids. Then hold them to the work. Your guys make less in their best month and more in their worst year. So do you — but the year is smoother and the phone keeps ringing. What I want from this room: If you run commission or spiffs, don’t just tell me it works. Post three numbers: your callback rate on replacements sold in the last 12 months, your average tech tenure, and what your top guy actually cleared last year. If you’re paying straight hourly, post the same three. That’s a conversation worth having. Everything else is just opinions.
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Disagreement isn’t an insult
Somewhere along the way, we decided disagreement was an insult. Somebody posts how they price a job. How they run their trucks. What they pay their techs. Somebody else does it another way. And instead of “that’s not how I’d do it,” we get name-calling, a paragraph of profanity, and a guy still sitting in the comments four hours later. Nobody set out to insult you. They just do it differently. Thirty-one years in this trade taught me something simple: two contractors can run completely different systems and both make money. One flat rates. One bills time and material. One runs six trucks, one runs one. Neither of them is taking a dollar out of the other’s pocket. Most guys in this business just want to do good work and get home. Some like to talk shop. Some like to boast about how they do it. None of that costs you a thing. So when you read something in here you don’t agree with, you’ve got three moves: Ask a question — and actually listen to the answer. Say your piece, agree to disagree, and go back to work. Or scroll. That’s it. Nobody’s making you sit there and watch it play out. Either way, tomorrow morning you’re back on the truck doing it your way. Nothing in that comment section changed that. This room only works if guys can put their numbers and their methods on the table without getting jumped for it. Protect that. Life’s hard enough on its own. Don’t invite more of it in for free. Work hard. Love hard. Enjoy the time we get on this beautiful earth.
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Are we the bad guys here? An honest thread.
The A2L transition has been good for us. Full stop. Higher ticket averages, more replacement conversations, an easy reason to steer a marginal repair toward a changeout. Anybody telling you otherwise isn’t looking at their own numbers. And I think it’s also true that the homeowner is getting squeezed harder than at any point I’ve seen in three decades. Where I’ve landed, and I want to know if you disagree: 1. The mandate is not the scam. The margin stacking on top of it is. Equipment premium is real — redesigned cabinets, coils, controls, leak detection. That’s legitimate cost. But R-454B at roughly double R-410A per pound after the 2025 surcharges, on top of a 10-20% equipment premium, on top of general inflation and tariffs? At some point that stops being compliance cost and starts being opportunity. The March class action against seven manufacturers is somebody else making that argument in court. 2. Q1 shipments down 29% is the warning sign, not the price increases. Homeowners aren’t paying more. They’re deferring. That’s a repair-heavy, patch-it-together year for anybody whose business model assumed a steady replacement pipeline. If you built your 2026 plan on changeout volume, check that assumption. 3. The trust cost is the real bill. This is the third refrigerant change in 30 years. The homeowner doesn’t distinguish between EPA, Carrier, and you. They just know the trade told them to buy something expensive again. Every one of these transitions burns a little more of the credibility we all operate on. What I’m doing about it, and where I want pushback: • I explain the transition before I quote, not after they flinch at the number. Costs me ten minutes. Saves the relationship. • I stopped using “your refrigerant is being phased out” as a closing line. It’s technically true and it’s manipulative, because their existing system can be serviced for years. If I need that line to close, my price isn’t the problem — my value story is. • I’m quoting the honest repair option even when the changeout is better for me. I lose some of those. I keep the customer.
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The apps I built and the Book I wrote for contractors.
The HVAC Contractor’s Bible — 63 chapters on starting, running, and selling an HVAC business, from $3,200 to a debt-free exit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0H9W28G4T Kelley HVAC Pro — full estimates and proposals built in minutes, right in the home https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id6759071311 HVAC Manual Boss — run your own Manual J, D and S load calcs instead of paying $250–$850 a pop https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hvac-manual-boss/id6761338720 BillBoss Pro — talk it out and turn it into a clean invoice on the spot https://apps.apple.com/app/id6765986966 ZipQuote — Low/Average/High market pricing by ZIP code across 19 trades https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id6761561850
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What that runaway hire actually cost me — the real number
I put the public version of this up this morning. Here’s what I left out, because these numbers only belong in a room where everybody’s signing the checks. The guy I’m talking about: 8 months in, I was paying him $4/hr over what the shop across town paid. Here’s the actual damage when he walked: • Wage premium I ate for 8 months: ~$5,500 • My best tech’s unbilled ride-along hours (roughly 200 hrs at his billable rate): ~$8,000 of capacity I never sold • Callbacks on his learning curve, 6 of them: ~$2,400 • Tools, uniforms, license fees, background, drug screen: ~$1,900 • The 4 months of recruiting and re-training after he left, plus the jobs I turned away short-handed: I stopped counting past $12,000 Call it $30K to train a tech for a competitor. That’s a truck payment for three years. What I changed after him, and it’s held ever since: 1. I stopped starting guys at the top. Now they start slightly under market with a written ladder — the number, and the exact skill that unlocks it. A guy who can see $34/hr coming in month 14 doesn’t take a call from a recruiter offering $32 today. 2. The 90-day sit-down became non-negotiable. Not a review. One question: “What would make you leave here?” They tell you. Every time. The guys who won’t answer that are the ones already halfway out the door. 3. The truck is earned, not issued. His own van with his name on it is the single cheapest retention tool I ever found, and I was giving it away before it meant anything. 4. Training investment now sits in writing. Not a handcuff contract you’d have to sue over — just a signed acknowledgment of what the company put in. It changes the conversation more than it changes the law. The one I still can’t fully solve: you can’t make a guy ask you to match. If he doesn’t ask, he wasn’t yours to keep. All you can do is make asking feel safe and make leaving feel expensive. Question for the room: what’s your actual all-in number to bring a green guy to productive? I want to see if my $30K is high or if everybody’s just not counting it.
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John Kelley
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@john-kelley-9541
Started HVAC w/ $3,200. Exited debt-free after 24 yrs. Author, HVAC Business Blueprint. Mod r/hvacpeople. Here to help owners win.

Active 3d ago
Joined Nov 27, 2025
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